User talk:Hhhippo/BuildArchive/Team Underworld trapping/Archive1
Mantras Would recommend that for the ME builds you include Mantra of Concentration. It will allow a trapper to take a hit while laying a trap. - Xneff :Thanks -DragonWR12LB :: Resolve is better Skuld :::Both are in the list now. 21:55, 20 March 2006 (CST) Shields up! Why did you remove shields up? it's useful for getting past behemoths :D not essential, but neither are any of the other secondry skills.. 16:50, 12 March 2006 (CST) :Woops. My bad. I read through the skills which were included in the article earlier and removed a few for some reasons. (elites not better than spike trap, not usefull imho, ...) I just couldn't think of a reson to use Shields up, but you are right. I'll add it now. 21:22, 13 March 2006 (CST) Serpents vs. Troll I disagree with the latest edit of DragonWR12LB. He changed the default build to include Serpent's Quickness instead of Troll Unguent. Troll Unguent is imho much more commonly used by trapper groups and confers a greater bonus. Serpent's Quickness is almost a total waste, as you can lay more than enough traps in the lasting time of the spirits to kill any enemies that walk into them (Very easy and quite fast even with a 3 man group). Only while duo trapping there is a little problem, but I have been able to duo trap very seccesfully without Serpents. You might save a few seconds of trapping time against each enemy mob, but it is not worth risking the groups survivability. Even the most experienced groups will face problems when a monster strays from the mob during a pull and doesn't die in the initialk traps. Without Troll Unguent these situations will be very dangerous. If someone disagrees with my points, please explain your reasons. I will edit this skill back for now. 16:44, 25 March 2006 (CST) :Now I see where your SQ might come in handy. You also changed the spirits so that a 3 man group would only have one QZ. This will cause huge problems in 3 man groups as the EW alone will make the traps recharge for very long. SQ in this case will be useful. Note that the lasting time of SQ is not long enough to have the traps recharge in reasonable times for the whole trapping process and possible trapping after the initial traps. 16:52, 25 March 2006 (CST) ::I wrote the original article for this build and at that time Serpent's Quickness is a highly necessary skill. I just did a few trapping runs and the majority of the people still bring SQ. The reason is because when a group is under fire one person is taking damage and the other three trappers need to drop as many traps as possible, they can not live by sitting there waiting for their traps to recharge. Also with SQ each indiviual trapper can lay 3-4 round of each trap before the puller does his job which will be more likely to kill all the enemies in the group not needed troll unugent. However for the puller it would be good to always have troll and cast it before going into battle, or heaing breeze. If we can't come to an agreement perhaps we could move BOTH SQ and TU to optional skills since the real foucs of this build is on traps with ritauls. --DragonWR12LB 17:23, 25 March 2006 (CST) :::Also Storm chaser is very effective when a situation turns sour especially when dealing with grapsing darkness. The puller should have this in case their pull doesn't grab all of them or they need to sprint to grab a certain group before they get away. Also the extra energy they would accumulate would allow for them to place more traps on their return. And for 3 man trapping groups the SQ will benefit everyone just as QZ does except it won't add as much energy used and the ritaul spot will allow for EoE or Winnow to do more damage with less traps. --DragonWR12LB 17:33, 25 March 2006 (CST) ::::I understand your points, but you still seem to have missed mine. I admit that SQ gives you one extra set of traps in the initial trapping phase. No big deal really as the initial traps are strong enough even without SQ. I also see your point of using SQ in aggressive trapping after the intial traps fail. ::::BUT, it is no use having the ablility to set more traps if you can't heal yourself and die instead. This build doesn't currently include any monks or other healer persons/skills, so bringing Troll Unguent for these situations is vital. The QZ and EW should both be still alive after the pulling, so SQ is not of much use at first. And if you are having problems on taking the enemy out quickly you propably should not be trapping them anymore. ::::Troll Unguent is also very good for pulling creatures like the Terrorweb Dryders. Terrorwebs cause burning and one puller alone can't (sometimes even with troll) pull the Terrorwebs so fast that he wouldn't die. Therefor we usually have another trapper use troll a bit later and then we swith the puller. The Webs are so slow moving that this is often necessary atleast by the monument in the Labyrinth. ::::I would suggest to keep the Troll on the puller build and put this skill slot on the other trappers build as optional if you are not willing to have troll listed as a must on them. 18:50, 25 March 2006 (CST) :::::Forgot one thing. Why do you want that a 3 man group takes QZ, EW and Winno, not 2x QZ and EW? The QZ lasts only 47 seconds while the EW 78. This causes the trapper to have high recharge on traps for 30 seconds, and the puller propably hasn't got a free slot for SQ. The bonus damage from Winno is minor, whereas the additional traps set using another QZ deal a lot damage. Using mainly a 3 man group I just have to disagree with you on this one. (And btw i checked the attribs, they were correct in the table :) ) Hope we get this solved soon. :) 19:04, 25 March 2006 (CST) ::::::Well obviously there are many various ways to approach trapping situations, this guide is for the general appraoch with the different variations in the section, so I think it is correct on how the non pullers only have the nature rituals and traps in their skill bar with the rest at the bottom. I also agree with the puller having troll, but instead of changeable it should be storm chaser because when dealing with darkness and smites who move quick the puller needs an escape plan. Also the main reason for storm chaser is the fact that they get energy for every dmg they take so when the puller DOES get back to to the group they can trap right away. Also the SQ takes the place of the 2nd QZ basically, this allows for EoE or Winnow that way if an enemy misses the first few traps there is just a slew of them and that would kill them or the multitude of the EoE bomb damage they take. Sure QZ allows for more traps to be placed but SQ does this more efficientally then a 2nd QZ and mind you Base mana for QZ is 25 (before rituals and expertise) and SQ is only 10 so that alone allows for more traps. --DragonWR12LB 07:39, 27 March 2006 (CST) :::::::Oh and don't just delete skills that people add to the main section. Move them down to the optional section and say why they may be useful. --DragonWR12LB 07:42, 27 March 2006 (CST) ::::::::I didn't mean to 'just delete' the skill, I was sure that I had added it to the list of optional skills. Not going to check the history, but if I forgot to do this, I am really sorry. Adding the Storm Chacer to the pullers skill bar as non-optional is not a good idea as I have never seen any pullers use it and I have never used it myself (And no energy problems ever). The SQ surely replaces the second QZ efficiently, but QZ only needs one skill slot from one player where SQ requires EACH player to take it, even the puller who could get better benefits from other skills. I will edit the spirit list with some notes so that we should both be satisfied and I will add the missing SQ in the optional skills list (If I forgot it earlier...). 18:43, 27 March 2006 (CST) I think we have now come to an agreement on this matter and I think that the article is much better now. Thanks for discussing the matter. I hope to see this build polished to a perfect state (including all of those weird weapons and armor texts etc). Now it seems to suit the builds of every experienced trapper I have ever met, including me and you. 16:40, 29 March 2006 (CST) Factions skills This is a real problem. not just here. we can not assume that everyone will buy faction. imho, there should be "prophecies builds" with notes for extra faction skills, and vice versa. combining them everywhere will make a second-degree players, which will be the ones having only "half the game". this will be a major problem in game, pugs will only want ch1+2 players, so lets try to evoid speading it. 22:59, 28 March 2006 (CST) :I took this into account while doing the updates. Didn't you notice that I made a separate table for the Factions skills? The table is under the optional skills and is completely separate from the origianl build. I also added a text to explain that these are only optional additions for those who have Factions, so there is no possibility for misunderstanding. 00:53, 29 March 2006 (CST) :Quote from the text: "The core build remains the same, but some of the skills could be changed if a player has the skills from other campaigns available." 01:04, 29 March 2006 (CST) ::Note to self, do not discuss guildwiki during UW runs. well, Bravo, Gem. now that I'm giving it the proper attention, I see things couldn't have been done better. I hope other articles will have the same consideration. :] 01:44, 29 March 2006 (CST) ::What do you think of three new categories, "Faction builds", "Prophecies builds" and "(insert the right word) builds"? now all builds will just be flaged as Propheviess', but future ones could be of the other two kinds. 01:48, 29 March 2006 (CST) :::Those categories are certainly needed. I think we should ask others too, but no one will propably have anything against it. And thanks for the compliment :) 03:49, 29 March 2006 (CST) ::::Good work Gem, now people who only have Prophicies can suck...do ok when it comes to trapping the UW. I think some of those new traps a really good, the Viper's Nest or what ever should be put into the main build section with a astrik saying "Factions only". Also that ritual that causes bleeding would be hell of alot better than winnow. --DragonWR12LB 15:53, 29 March 2006 (CST) :::::Ah, I forgot the Assassin and Ritualist skills. My oh my... I do not think the spirit Brambles is worth the gold icon. It causes bleeding, but a Barbed Trap with WS16 causes bleeding for 27 seconds allready. It also deals 5 extra damage, but not 5 per Spiked Trap, only 5 per each monster knocked down. The only effect of this skill is to deal 5 damage to each monster. Not really worthwile imho. I really don't know why I even added it in the list now that I think of it. :::::And there isn't really such a great benefit for trappers in the new skills that I would see having Factions for UW trapping is in any sence necessary. The Viper's Nest doesn't really do more damage than the other traps and the poison should have no effect if the initial traps work (If they don't poison is great). The other new trap, Snare, is completely useless. The other optional skills don't seem that good either. I doubt that Factions will make UW trapping any faster or more easier. 16:27, 29 March 2006 (CST) ::::::Brambles is not elite, Lacerate is. Not that I care. :) --Karlos 16:33, 29 March 2006 (CST) :::::::Umm, the gold icon doesn't indicate elite, but a useful skill as stated in the text before the tables. :) 16:40, 29 March 2006 (CST) ::::::::Suits me for sticking my nose in ranger business. --Karlos 18:56, 29 March 2006 (CST) :I copied the first part of the discussion to Category talk:Builds, since this touches the complete build category structure. --Xeeron 18:04, 29 March 2006 (CST) My comments on Brambles copied from the earlier discussion with slight modification: I do not think the spirit Brambles is worth taking. It causes bleeding, but a Barbed Trap with WS16 causes bleeding for 27 seconds allready. It also deals 5 extra damage, but not 5 per Spiked Trap, only 5 damage on each monster knocked down. The only effect of this skill is to deal 5 damage to each monster. Not really worthwile imho. I really don't know why I even added it in the list now that I think of it. 18:48, 29 March 2006 (CST) Brambles :Someone has hard time reading the talk page. I explained why I removed Brambles, you just put it back with no explanation. Again copy: I do not think the spirit Brambles is worth taking. It causes bleeding, but a Barbed Trap with WS16 causes bleeding for 27 seconds allready. It also deals 5 extra damage, but not 5 per Spiked Trap, only 5 damage on each monster knocked down. The only effect of this skill is to deal 5 damage to each monster. Not really worthwile imho. :I could come come up with a million skills which deal MORE than 5 damage to each foe and still they aren't listed on this page. Why should we list this one? If you do not have a use for this skill which I fail to see, please explain it. I would like to know. If you just have misunderstood/misread the skill or something, plese don't just blindly add it again after I remove it. :When SQ was removed from the page it was an honest mistake. Removing Brambles was not and I explained everything on the talk page. If you have something against me removing stuff from the page, please say so and explain, don't just start an edit war. 08:43, 30 March 2006 (CST) ::Thanks for fixing it. :) 14:45, 30 March 2006 (CST)